County takes stand on mask wearing

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The line for the Oak Bluffs post office wraps around the corner to Back Door Donuts. Some are wearing masks, others are not. - Lucas Thors

The Dukes County Commission is drafting a resolution to be sent to all Island towns suggesting mandatory fines be enforced for folks not wearing masks.

Commissioner Christine Todd, who is also executive director of the Oak Bluffs Association, said she is noticing that some people on Martha’s Vineyard are still not wearing masks in public, like on Circuit Avenue, where she said noncompliance is rampant. She highlighted some problem areas, and reminded commissioners of the petition that circulated in Edgartown requiring mandatory mask fines. In other towns, she said, people are still not in compliance. Todd said that Oak Bluffs has a petition being circulated that has garnered more than 200 signatures, but said she thinks this notion should be applied to the entire Island.

The association’s petition seeks to follow suit with Edgartown to impose fines, Todd said. 

County manager Martina Thornton said the county does not have an enforcement arm to take on this initiative by itself, although they could enforce mask wearing at State Beach, since it is a county-owned beach, but added they don’t have the necessary personnel available.

Commissioner Keith Chatinover said he is frustrated that the only Island-wide legislative body [the county] has no way to enforce mask wearing, and stressed that a town-by-town approach to this issue is the wrong approach. “What is the point of having the six separate towns enforce masks? I understand that Chilmark and Oak Bluffs are different places, but are they really different for COVID-19?” Chatinover said. “How can we treat this pandemic differently depending on which side of a rock you live on?”

Chatinover called mask wearing “the most sensical decision to make,” and said that it is inefficient and ineffective to have activists from all the different towns circulate petitions to make a common-sense decision that should have Island-wide consensus. 

“We shouldn’t have to fight town by town for masks, where this is clearly an issue where the Island should be united,” Chatinover said. “It frustrates me that we can’t keep our public safe.”

Todd said that although the county has the ability to make suggestions, it is ultimately up to the town boards of selectmen and boards of health to make their own decisions.

“We can say whatever we want, but it is up to the towns to make their choice. I do think it is important to go on record saying that this is the most important thing to do for public safety for the whole Island,” Todd said.

Commission chair Tristan Israel said the commissioners could draft a resolution to all the Island towns suggesting mandatory mask wearing and enforcement with fines. 

Commissioner Don Leopold highlighted the immense task that is before the boards of selectmen and boards of health in each town, and reminded his fellow commissioners to respect the degree of difficulty or challenge of these governing bodies’ positions.

The boards of health are the acting enforcers for any mask wearing or issues related to public health, but Leopold said they are already stretched thin, and asking them to put out their own boots on the ground for enforcement would be unrealistic because of the lack of personnel.

“I know in Chilmark, they tried to do some enforcement earlier, and the police were asked to play some role. I know the police found that extremely uncomfortable,” Leopold said.

Todd said she knows the enforcement falls into the legal jurisdiction of the boards of health, but said the health departments don’t have the staff to address this issue, and whomever they do hire to take on this task would have to be top-notch.

“You have to have someone who is really tough and serious about the job, not some kid who is just here for the summer,” Todd said. “However we craft this message, it is to state simply that we are very concerned as county commissioners.”

Todd suggested using the language in the resolution she worked on for Oak Bluffs and broadening it to apply to the entire Island. The commissioners will review the draft letter, and finalize it at their next meeting.

 

An in-tents idea

Alchemy Bistro & Bar in Edgartown has been approved to have outdoor dining on the courthouse lawn by the Dukes County Commission; now they are finalizing all the elements they need to make the experience a special and safe one. 

The restaurant will be putting a tent over its outdoor dining area to accommodate patrons. The tents will take up 800 square feet of lawn, and one tent will be 20 by 30 feet (which will serve as the main dining area), with two other 10- by 10-foot tents for additional space. 

The concept has been approved by the Edgartown Historic District Commission, but commissioner Leon Brathwaite asked about liability issues related to having a tent up for 24 hours straight. “I just want to make sure no one gets hurt there,” Brathwaite said.

Alchemy office manager Kelsie Dahlen said there are no hourly restraints on the restaurant’s insurance, and she expects it would cover any issues all day long.

If a bad storm was approaching, the tent company would assess the situation, and take the tent down if need be.

Thornton said the agreement the county has with Alchemy will have to be amended because it currently states that the restaurant would be in charge of taking the tent down at the end of their business each day. Thornton said she would work on modifying the agreement.

Thornton voiced her concern over the impact the tent would have on the condition of the courthouse lawn, and noted mowing and watering as two important components to consider.

“We can work something out, but we have to figure out how we are going to maintain the lawn, with sprinklers and mowing going on when there is a structure on it,” Thornton said. “Whatever lawn they take up, it will be up to them how they will maintain it.”

Dahlen said the sprinkler system will not be affected by the tent the way it is going to be placed. Alchemy managers also said the mowing schedule would not be affected by the tent being up, and they would add a second mow on Wednesday mornings prior to court business as a good-faith gesture to the county.

120 COMMENTS

  1. To mask or not to mask, that is the question.
    The answer yes.
    Death is permanent.
    The economy fluctuates.

  2. It doesn’t make any sense to not make this Island wide. I totally get that there is going to be resistance from some people that will cause problems for the ones trying to enforce this but clearly it needs to be done. It’s no different than having to wear clothing in public.
    You can’t walk around naked with getting a fine or even going to jail for that matter. You may even end up at The Bridgewater mental hospital. So it seems the time has come to start handing out fines to clearly get the point across. This has nothing to do with taking away your rights. It’s a health requirement durning a Pandemic people just wear your face covering/ mask when you asked to and get over it.
    There are so many things that could be so much worse than wearing a face covering. If you can’t for medical reasons that is understood but I think you need to set any other reasons aside for a bit until this is under control. Not wearing a face covering for religious reasons or because your a Sovereign Citizen just doesn’t make any sense. Get a grip on your self’s people.

    • BigT speaks the truth. 🙂 I’ve been thinking about the nudity thing lately. If this is really about freedom, why doesn’t anyone fight having to wear clothes or shoes in public spots? We don’t have these kinds of culture wars over the “no shirt, no shoes, no service” signs, but as soon as grocery stores wanted us to put on masks, the Constitution came up.

      I think the only way to prove the point — that we *all* expect others to comply for our comfort sometimes — is to recruit male nudists to ride the boat and frequent restaurants. I’d bet $1 million that the same folks who say masks are Nazi tools would not stand for a naked man brushing up against them in line for the ferry. (Saying man instead of woman or people because if a female is in the mix, some clown will probably reply with, “Actually, I’d like that…” )

      • Don’t laugh, but years ago there was a small group of island women who wanted to go to the non-nude beaches without bathing suit tops because men didn’t have to wear tops. I don’t think that act of civil disobedience ever took off, but I understood their point.

        Earlier this morning I was walking my dog in a quiet, usually unpeopled place, and had my mask looped around my ears and under my chin, just in case. I saw a group of 3 unmasked people approaching me from the opposite direction and pulled my mask up. When they came near, my dog starting barking. One of the men was being very friendly and said, “Oh, I’m not afraid of you, tough guy”. I said, “I’m very afraid of people without masks”. The man said nothing and kept walking. I honestly don’t know what else to do or say when someone comes up to me without a damn mask on.

        • You made your point and lived your life in that brief momnet as you wanted. And so did they. Win-win, wouldn’t you say?

          • Jackie, too late, I laughed. 🙂 My ultra-modest side could never, but the inner feminist approves of that beach plan.

            I would be nervous in your shoes, too. Don’t see how anyone could think this is a good time to approach strangers unmasked. It’s not like they could’ve missed the message.

            Seaman, I’m sure we all wish it were that simple. Viruses can follow us home and last a lot longer than the moment it takes to hand them off. I’m 100% in favor of live and let live when there’s no potential for harm, but…

          • Failure to take reasonable precautions to reduce the spread is not a win, for anyone, particularly those who will die due to the spread.

      • Aquinnah — actually, there are very few laws that forbid bare feet in any public place, including restaurants.
        https://www.footfiles.com/wellness/relaxation/article/its-perfectly-legal-to-go-barefoot-in-stores-and-restaurants
        I am barefoot most of the time in the summer.
        I am not sure what it is about bare feet that offends some people.
        Toes ? Open sandals are fine– so that’s not it.
        If your feet are getting air they are not going to smell and more than your elbow.
        So that’s not it.
        Sanitary ? When was the last time you washed the bottom of your shoes ?
        How about your feet ? You can’t take a shower or a bath without at least having them get rinsed off.
        fresh air prevents common toe fungus like athlete’s foot (or missle- toe if you are an astronaut 😉 )
        If we are walking across a parking lot on our way into the supermarket, and we each step on dog poop, which of us will know it, do something about and not go in tracking dog poop ? This is especially if you are wearing boots with tread that traps it and spreads it around in clumps on the floor of the store. — Yuck– Disgusting !
        There are plenty of reasons to wear a mask during a pandemic and no good reason for shoes.
        And please, thank you all for your concerns about the safety of my feet, but when you are commonly barefoot, you notice where you step. I also cannot sue a store or a municipality because I am negligent.

        I also came across this video;
        Seems like a pretty good way to to deal with federal storm troopers– these poor guys had no idea how to deal with this very confident and strong woman.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WYCqPYFOK4

    • Island Raised, I’m afraid to even ask what you mean by this. Don’t imagine it’s something wholesome like resetting a router.

      Care to elaborate?

      • “I’m 100% in favor of live and let live when there’s no potential for harm, but…” There is never “no potential for harm” in any system or situation. There is no place in space or time where the risk of harm is zero.

        • Seaman, allow me to rephrase. Didn’t think the word “no” would be taken quite so literally. Yes, it’s sometimes a physical impossibility to avoid doing any harm when we live in huge communities and are not soothsayers. People are bound to bump up against one another in unfortunate ways without the ability to prevent it. That is separate from being fully made aware of a serious threat and choosing to ignore it when encountering someone else who is trying to be cautious, in part for your benefit. The risk will never be zero because life is not perfect, but when we can greatly reduce harm with simple efforts, it’s the neighborly and responsible thing to do. Using your logic, no one should ever object to drunk driving or walking around with a loaded gun pointed at us because, hey, there’s always a risk and folks should do as they please. In reality, we all have our limits. For some of us, the virus is included in those boundaries. It’s now killed over 600,000 people, so that’s a perfectly reasonable stance.

        • The harm of Covid 19 can be significantly reduced by the use of masks.
          There are no absolutes.

          Think of masks like seatbelts.
          Seat belts absolutely do not remove the the risk of death in a car smash.
          All they do is significantly reduce the chance.

          Do you wear a seatbelt?
          Why?
          Do you make kids in your car wear seatbelts?
          Why?
          Fear of of arrest for child endangerment?

        • Island Raised, if that reply was meant for me, I have read about the Great Reset and still don’t know how you were relating it to this particular article. That’s why I asked you, not Google. For what it’s worth, I’m aware that I’m your average peanut in a big gallery. But this isn’t about me. It’s a matter of debunking dangerous claims. Are you going to retract the incorrect links you’ve posted or respond to the points I raised? If a doctor can’t apply medical terms properly or tell the truth, you shouldn’t be undermining our community efforts based on his word.

          • It’s clear that Island Raised has no idea what he’s posting. Island Raised is making Island Education look like a total failure. You are right to see that his posts are debunked and do harm and damage to our community.

  3. I am getting old, and my eyesight is failing, but it looks like everyone in the picture posted here is wearing a mask.

    • My own eyesight is going from too much computer work and frequent eye-rolling as of late, but I had the same thought, Don. 🙂 The pictured group looks 👍.

  4. Enforcing mask laws makes the police “uncomfortable.” Do the police now get to pick and choose the laws they wish to enforce? Maybe we should start fining the police chiefs for every mask violation spotted.

    • The police have always picked and chose the laws they wish to enforce.
      They see at least 10 ‘crimes’ a day that they choose to not act on.
      No cop is going to enforce 61 in a 60, 80 is different.
      Same for very slow rolling stop signs.

      When the Island starts to see a few Covid – 19 death a week the police will be enforcing the mask laws.
      That is how policing works.
      Most people do not have a problem with no harm law breakers.
      Dead people make all the difference.

  5. Right on Mel, and also fine the County Commissioners personally (which I dont think we can) but we can vote them all out and “Abolish Count Government’ as they have been AWOL from day one on this and on so many other issue when they are in the island’s top leadership role and should always be trying to keep all the towns safe, on the same page and in order!
    `I will leave it there`..

    • TN would you be a fine candidate for County Commissioner?
      You seem to know what the current one’s are doing wrong.

      • Ajay, I don’t want to join them I want to abolish them like almost all the other countries in our state and they dont regret it.

        • tis — I am either a bit confused or seriously concerned with your comment that you want to abolish “other countries in our state” as well as “count government”
          Likely a typo or 2 .. I understand.
          but the comments and the sentiment in themselves are bizarre . What would abolishing these agencies accomplish ?
          perhaps you are just lashing out because, as you claim, you ran for office–but you never said if you won or lost. Since you have not bragged about your “glorious victory” we can assume you lost.
          I can also assume that because you lost, you are lashing out at these government agencies to sooth your ego.
          Sorry, I’m not buying your whine.

        • MA has 14 counties
          MA has 14 elected County Sheriffs.
          MA has 14 County Jails.
          County governance is alive and well in MA.
          Do you want each Island town to have it’s own jail?

        • You abolish County government by getting elected to it.
          You make it rot and die from the inside.
          Only then can we be free.
          Have you picked a campaign manager.
          Don’t let your last failure discourage you.

    • As the article said, it’s not as though we don’t want to play a leadership role on COVID-19. It’s that we can’t because of how government is structured on Martha’s Vineyard.

      • How does the Dukes County government structure differ from the Barnstable County government structure?

  6. I have a next door neighbor who routinely holds cocktail parties/BBQs with plenty of alcohol and loud music. I have yet to see a single mask on an attendee. My town’s local police will do nothing. What is the solution?

  7. Are they serving underage minors?
    Does music decibel level exceed town ordinance?
    What is the ‘mask law’ when it comes to private property closed to the public?
    If my next door neighbor’s family comes over for dinner do we all have to wear masks?
    What if my next door neighbor is my brother?

  8. Islander
    It sounds like your on your own here.
    It’s no surprise that the police are not responding to your call about your neighbors not wearing masks on their private property. If they are aren’t coming about the loud music then it’s likely not loud enough to be breaking any laws and what’s a BBQ without a cold beverage?
    I think we all have had a neighbor at some point in our lives that we didn’t mix well with it’s a part of life.
    It seems your solution to this is to join the BBQ, close your windows or put on some of your own music and stop looking at your mask less neighbors on their own property. Sorry to be so harsh but.

  9. I thank God everyday that Trump is our President.
    He knows how to Make America First.
    First in the world in Covid – 19 deaths.
    I doubt that Hillary could have even got us to fourth.

      • Trump isn’t nearly done watching Americans die by the tens of thousands and not giving a fly fig. He has until January to kill more of us by pretending we’re not in the middle of a nationwide health crisis and having no plan to lead us out and through. The imbecile can’t even mandate mask-wearing.

      • You are so very wrong.
        The the most advanced nation on the face of the earth has the most Covid – 19 deaths.
        Period.
        As for deaths per million the first 6 are all small countries.
        (They are all Left leaning so their death numbers are suspect.)

        Come November voters will be thinking about the number of Americans dead from Covid – 19, not the rate.

        What do you think Trump’s tipping point is?
        600,000?
        300,000?
        150,000?
        100,000?

        • Ajay, Trump’s tipping point is Ivanka. I do not say that to wish ill on her. I just don’t think he will care unless and until this harms him or a couple of people in his circle. Even then, he would not be worried about the rest of us. After all, and I can’t stress this enough, everyone is tested before coming near him. I’m still waiting for the “it’s just a seasonal cold!” peeps to justify that point. They can’t, so they ignore it.

        • Absolute number is not really a meaningful stat. It not a rate.
          It is great, though, for the unthinking panic business.

      • Island raised– please don’t take ajay’s comments seriously– they just say stuff to get a response–
        The Us is indeed # 1 in total cases, total deaths, and dumbest leader.

      • As a matter of fact, no, viz:

        “Surgical masks as source control

        We were able to identify only two household studies in which surgical masks were worn by the index patient only, as source control.24,25 Neither of these found a significant impact on secondary disease transmission, although both studies had important limitations.

        Clinical trials in the surgery theater have found no difference in wound infection rates with and without surgical masks.26-29 ***Despite these findings, it has been difficult for surgeons to give up a long-standing practice.30″**
        (Figures are note callouts.)
        So, there you go.
        Quite apart from the fact that 50% of the supposed rationale for a surgeon wearing a mask is partly to prevent bodily fluids from spurting or spraying into the face of the surgeon in the course of an operation. This is probably why they do not want to give up wearingn a mask, in spite of the evidence.
        Just read the whole document yourself. I am tired of doing other people’s reading for them while they continue to diss and bully and badmouth.
        I already posted a link to a relevant CDC document in this thread.
        And do inform yourself as to what CIDRAP is before you think you know better.
        As they point out, people seem to be desperate for a pretext to drop social distancing. This fully understand. And I will continue to wear a mask in a shop, just in case (and also, I need food!). But not outdoors. As the CIDRAP docoument repeats, the dangerous environment for “inoculation” (the scientific term for a germ actually getting into your mucous membranes) is a closed space where there is poor ventilation and one spends time. The equation is viral load X time. One of the problems with wearing a mask is, obviously, reinfection of oneself if the mask or one’s mucous membrane HAS picked up even a small viral load (say, from visiting someone who is ill with covid-19). Remember, viral load X time. You don’t want to increase your exposure to any wayward viruses by trapping them in your cloth or surgical mask and then breathing them in and out and then in again. Well, I am tired of this and I do have a day job, and y’all do know how to read.
        Sayonara.

        • “In fact Osterholm now recommends wearing a mask.”
          As we learn more about Covid – 19 recommendations change.

        • Yeah, due to Trump’s leadership by example the US has reached the milestone of 140,000 Covid – 19 dead.
          Still number one in the world (America First!).
          He is on track for 200,000 dead by election day.
          That will insure his reelection.
          Then he can focus on his new Statue Garden on the National Mall.
          The final statue will be unveiled on his last day in office, he will be gone but not forgotten.

          • Hey, the imbecile-in-chief just gave a news conference. He wants everyone to wear a mask. The guy’s a genius. He also said it’s going to get worse. So, all these months later, he finally decides to do what all the smart people were trying to tell this idiot to do. How many Americans got sick and died because they believed people looked “foolish” wearing masks and that it was a matter of choice and freedom? Look up the definition of 3rd degree murder. And then listen to some idiot talk about how we have more cases becauses we have more testing being done. Too little too late. Get him out in November. Take America Back from the greedy and stupid.

    • When you understand that this is a novel virus, Island Raised, you will understand that an article published on April 1st of this year is now outdated. In fact Osterholm now recommends wearing a mask. People who publish irresponsible links that are medically outdated, with the intent to diminish the crisis/keep people from understanding the importance of the most current guidelines, should be banned from posting. They are intent on hurting people by not knowing what the hell they are talking about— like the imbecile in the WH. Put your mask on, it’s better than not wearing one.

    • Yeah one organization says that the cloth masks may not be effective at filtering smaller concentrations of Covid – 19.
      They did not say that they are not effective.

      Cloth masks are more comfortable, durable and washable.
      Filter medium masks do a better job filtering, imagine that.
      Some filtering is better than no filtering.
      Wear a mask.
      Save a life.
      Maybe.
      Well worth the effort.

    • Island Raised, which stance do you support? Are you claiming masks are harmful or ineffective or worth trying? You have posted links at different times that indicate all three opinions. This one does not mesh well with the others, and it’s full of its own contradictions. They still recommend masks.

      “However, we also encourage everyone to continue to limit their time spent indoors near potentially infectious people…”

      No one that I’ve heard from has assumed otherwise. Masks are one piece of the puzzle, not a stand-alone solution. No pun intended. I feel the message behind that has been quite consistent and transparent.

      Please stop trying to find links to back up a political agenda. You go about it irresponsibly. The last expert had connections to Alex Jones-Lecter.

      • You keep switching your ground to stay in the right
        As for backing up political agenda, ha ha ha.
        I am not the one obsessing about Trump and accusing people of being Trump supporters if they don’t like what they say. That would be you and your friend Jackie.

        • Island Raised, what are you talking about? I have posted the same messages here repeatedly. I have never switched ground. You have repeatedly run with different theories that amount to the same thing. Trying to instill fear or discourage use of masks. You refuse to reply to correction, preferring ad homs, then you complain about “bullying”. It’s ridiculous.

          I have rarely even mentioned Trump on this site, let alone in relation to the virus. If he handled this crisis properly, I would be the first to say so and give credit. He has not. He’s failed us. But my take on how to handle the pandemic would be the same under any president.

          • Here’s what I had to say on April 2nd about viewing masks as one piece of a larger puzzle. Boy, I sure do flip and flop to stay in the right.

            “I’m not saying that masks should give us a false sense of confidence or encouraging anyone to throw the other rules out the window. Constant hand washing, sanitizing, distancing, and only making trips for groceries are still priority. But I believe masks can go a long way in helping. Since this virus is transmitted by the asymptomatic, we should cover up like we have it.”

            You will try any tactic to avoid addressing all the junk science you’ve posted, IR.

          • “Untrue garbage,” and “junk science” from CIDRAP????
            OMG.
            You think you are smarter than the scientists at CIDRAP, just like your hero Ajay.

          • Sure, Island Raised. Pretend you’ve only posted CIDRAP info. Not that crude study that suddenly vanished. Not the fired Fox News expert who think white, straight Germans are the center of the universe and who cannot define the word flu. And certainly not the Alex Jones buddy who tells flat-out, verifiable lies and misunderstands the most basic biological concepts in an effort to sell fear.

            And FYI, CIDRAP supports masks.

          • Why do racists on other threads and science deniers here (ok, and Trump supporters everywhere) go to old or outdated sources instead of following the burgeoning news and science and awareness?

        • With all due resapect to the University of Minnesota, CIDRAP, which supprts the earing of masks, one should consider the following before claiming there is no valid, scientific evidence concerning the efficacy of face masks in mitigating viral transmission:

          Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis. [Meta-Analysis] Chu, Derek K., et al. “Physical Distancing, Face Masks, and Eye Protection to Prevent Person-to-person Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a Systematic Review and Meta-analysis.” Lancet (London, England), vol. 395, no. 10242, 2020, pp. 1973-1987.

          Personal protective equipment for preventing highly infectious diseases due to exposure to contaminated body fluids in healthcare staff. Verbeek, Jos H., et al. “Personal Protective Equipment for Preventing Highly Infectious Diseases Due to Exposure to Contaminated Body Fluids in Healthcare Staff.” The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, vol. 5, 2020, p. CD011621.

          Masks for prevention of viral respiratory infections among health care workers and the public: PEER umbrella systematic review. Dugré, Nicolas, et al. “Masks for Prevention of Viral Respiratory Infections Among Health Care Workers and the Public: PEER Umbrella Systematic Review.” Canadian Family Physician Medecin De Famille Canadien, vol. 66, no. 7, 2020, pp. 509-517.

          Non Pharmaceutical Interventions for Optimal Control of COVID-19. Zamir, Muhmmad, et al. “Non Pharmaceutical Interventions for Optimal Control of COVID-19.” Computer Methods and Programs in Biomedicine, vol. 196, 2020, p. 105642.

          Bidirectional impact of imperfect mask use on reproduction number of COVID-19: A next generation matrix approach. Fisman, David N., et al. “Bidirectional Impact of Imperfect Mask Use On Reproduction Number of COVID-19: a Next Generation Matrix Approach.” Infectious Disease Modelling, vol. 5, 2020, pp. 405-408.

          • In defernce to the U. of M. and CIDRAP:

            COMMENTARY: My views on cloth face coverings for the public for preventing COVID-19
            Michael T. Osterholm, PhD, MPH | Director | CIDRAP
            | Jul 22, 2020

            Dr. Osterholm clarifies that he supports the wearing of cloth face coverings in public and urges people to stop citing CIDRAP and him as grounds for not wearing masks, but he also asks that advocates not use poorly conducted studies to support their use.

        • ajay, yes, they should be wearing masks. An excellent question. Yes, for at least two reasons. The first is that anyone collecting samples must assume that everyone he or she tests is positive for COVID-19. Standard ( formerly ‘universal’) precautions. The second, which closely resembles the first, is cross-contamination. The one administering the test may cause his or her own bodily substance to contaminate a sample, thereby causing a false negative or even a false positive.

    • Island raised– I don’t know if you looked at the link you posted, but it was outdated to begin with, stated the best reason for the general public to not wear a mask was because there was a shortage of ppe’s and they were needed for front line workers. It has since been updated and clearly advocates for the use of masks by the general public.
      The most recent reference cited was April 23 rd.. times have changed…. Most of the references were from years ago, long before the pandemic.
      This reminds me of an old saying–
      “Better to remain quiet and have people think you are ignorant, rather than speak, and prove it.”

  10. For those who are short of time, the core message of the CIDRAP document is this:

    Data lacking to recommend broad mask use

    We do not recommend requiring the general public who do not have symptoms of COVID-19-like illness to routinely wear cloth or surgical masks because:

    **There is no scientific evidence they are effective in reducing the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission**
    Their use may result in those wearing the masks to relax other distancing efforts because they have a sense of protection
    We need to preserve the supply of surgical masks for at-risk healthcare workers.
    ++++++++++++++++

    Please cease the self-righteous online bullying about mask wearing.

    • There’s no bullying, IR. Just support for following the mask order and protecting one another.

      It’s been noted repeatedly that distancing has its place, too.

      The world is a big experiment right now. As Jackie said, this is novel, so the best we can do is adopt the practices of places that have done better than we have. No surprise that those locations are made up of citizens who comply more readily. Masks are not their sole tool. They distance. But I believe masks played a big part. 12 deaths out of 7.5 million people is compelling evidence that guidelines are worthwhile. That same spot, Hong Kong, is seeing a surge in cases right now, and that’s because efforts were relaxed. Their leaders referred to 100 positives in a day as “out of control” and mandated masks in more locations. If only our government had done the same. If only 100 citizens were viewed as significant here.

      It’s strange that at one time, making sacrifices for the good of the country was seen as a mark of strong character. Now we are dismissed or chided for being sheep when trying to employ the same principles.

      • Uh-huh, seeing it in black and white, and perhaps even reading this recent CIDRAP document yourself instead of just sanctmoniously and self-riighteously bloviating here, you now choose to continue the bloviating, switching your message from science to “making sacrifices for the good of the country.”
        I guess you expect people to sacrifice their own health and well-being for an abstract “good of the country.”
        It is your choice to just unquestioningly “do as you are told.”
        I guess this is what you are teaching your kids, if you have any.
        Not mine.

        • Island Raised, you’re grasping at nothing to get out of addressing the facts that you were challenged on. The hostility is uncalled for but not surprising. If you don’t wish to pay attention to someone’s stances, okay, but at least refrain from telling lies about mine. I have said a thousand times that we should come together for the good of our community, and masks play a part in that goal. I have taken that stance here for over five months, in fact, and not because The Media or The Man forced it down my throat. I wanted us to use masks from the start but knew it wouldn’t happen. This country was not prepared.

          You have, without fail, gone out of your way since post #1 to be as combative and condescending as possible, then you play victim. It’s very odd. If you read the comment I left for you under the article about the high school and BLM, there is not one bit of ad hom in it. I kept it about science, not about you personally. As I expected, you did not reply. I guess a genuine discussion is not what you’re seeking. You only seem to care about treating this as some kind of intellectual competition with other commenters, not a public health issue, and the insults keep coming. “Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength.”

          It doesn’t matter if you think I’m a stable genius or a few crackers short of a Lunchable. I just want people to remain healthy and show some compassion. And yes, I do believe children should be taught to care about everyone around them, including the elderly and those with medical conditions. If you object, then we have different ways of viewing the world.

    • Island Raised: Try, just try to see the reality of the big picture. This is current CIDRAP, not the out-dated info like in your link from CIDRAP:

      “Both Kriebel and Haber agree that masks probably do offer a level of protection, but right now there is no way to tease out how much protection masks offer versus physical distancing of 6 feet or more, or hand washing.
      …I would say, ‘Mask use is our best judgment right now, and we will tell you if we get more evidence’…”

      Then there’s this:
      https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/health/face-masks-us-guidance/index.html

      Put on your mask. How hard is it to be on the safer side? As Aquinnah has told you, look to the countries that are doing a lot better than we are and do what they’re doing– wearing masks, among other things.

      • Bottom line: there is no scientific evidence supporting the mask wearing orders given by either the county or any town boards of health. The CIDRAP conducted a survey of all RCTs they could find. You can read it yourself.

        “Probably” is not science. “May” is not science. Do notice how virtually every single study with which also the CDC supported its April mandate either was not about mask wearing or had the words “probably,” “may,” These were not RCTs.

        If individuals choose to wear a nappy on their face that is of course their choice. But under such flimsy premises to *force* people to wear a face nappy outdoors, particularly in light of the existence of actual scientific data that nappy wearing is harmful in a number of ways—including *increasing infection*—is absurd.

  11. Outdated, Island Raised, just like you, and like every other brainwashed supporter of Trump who hasn’t yet had the brain capacity to understand the stupidity of what comes from the Trump administration. You’re quoting from an outdated April 1st article. Guidelines are refined and sometimes changed as smart people study and learn more about this NOVEL virus. You don’t have a clue to understand the sources of what you post. Looking at current and unfolding information the experts are learning is how intelligent people make decisions regarding how best to be responsible citizens during this health crisis. They don’t regard someone like you as a worthwhile source of anything. Wear your mask 😷

    • Also, ignorant and damaging posts are not responded to with bullying. They are responded to with the corrections they deserve. When you continue to post blather that is harmful to the community, your whining about the deserved response is infantile— Just because the toddler in the WH does the same kind of lashing out to deserved criticism, that doesn’t make it right or a worthwhile psychological coping mechanism for when one doesn’t have a clue. Take a look at Chris Wallace’s interview with Trump from yesterday (Sunday). It’s a perfect ad for Joe Biden. Your comments also provide reason to reasonable people as to why they need to vote Biden 2020.

  12. https://www.wsj.com/articles/face-masks-really-do-matter-the-scientific-evidence-is-growing-11595083298

    Here’e a current article (2 days old) from the Wall Street Journal, a news source touted by Trump supporter Andrew (although it’s doubtful he actually reads it). There is good reason to wear masks, despite what those without any capacity to understand or care post here.

    “Face masks are emerging as one of the most powerful weapons to fight the novel coronavirus, with growing evidence that facial coverings help prevent transmission—even if an infected wearer is in close contact with others.”

    Be a good citizen and wear your mask in public.

  13. I hate how people treat covid 19 as the worst thing ever. Over 95% of people who have it recover fine, the media doesn’t focus on that, they use scare tactics to disseminate fear among th population and brainwash them. People say “so don’t to the doctor if you get sick”, guess what? The grand majority of people are not going to even know they have it or have the need to go to the hospital!

        • It’s a lie to diminish the seriousness of this very contageous disease. If half the population got the disease, and it’s 10 times more deadly than the seasonal flu, and “only” 5% died, would that number of dead Americans be enough to make you put on a mask? Apparently 140,000 dead bodies still isn’t enough for some. Do the math, even if you have to count on your fingers. And I know people who have survived, and they have lingering symptoms, now months aferward. One man in his 50s with no previous medical problems has nerve damage so bad he has to relearn how to walk. And he ‘s going to lose his business because he can no longer work. When the diseases hits the loved ones of deniers, then they go public telling people to wear masks. Just pay attention to science and the reality of the math you tout, and you won’t have to learn the hard way.

        • Give up, Qwerty, it’s the same old blah blah blah no matter who often one tries to explain (1) basic statistics and rates and (2) what is actually science and what is not.

          • You posted lies and garbage, IR, and then deleted it, and yet you still stand by the outdated information CIDRAP has moved on from, as they support wearing masks now. Try to stay up to date. Science is fluid.

    • So far for 140,000 Americans, and counting, Covid – 19 is the worst thing ever.
      How many are too many?
      30 million, 3 million, 300,000, 150,000?
      When will it get scary?
      When a family member dies of Covid – 19?
      Will you be scared when they jam the tubes down into your lungs.
      Or will you refuse.
      Death does not scare you?

      • “Will you be scared when they jam the tubes down into your lungs.”
        They don’t do that anymore. Fear porn.

        • “They” most certainly do. “Endotracheal intubation is the approved way of providing breathing support to COVID-19 coronavirus disease patients as of this article’s update in early April, 2020. Excerpted from, “Endotracheal Intubation.” Medical Author: George Schiffman, MD, FCCP Medical Editor: Melissa Conrad Stöppler, MD(https://www.medicinenet.com/endotracheal_intubation/article.htm) I have not yet worked in a hospital in which ET’s are NOT sometimes used used in emergent situations, and this includes MVH. I ask this not as a taunt: From where do you gather otherwise about endotracheal intubation?

    • querty– your 95 % statistic is a bit disturbing– The U.S currently ( as of 6:27 pm dst) has 2,010,480, active cases. That means 100,524 people will die in the upcoming weeks..
      Every day the U.S is averaging about 60,000 new cases. of which an additional 3,000 will die every day in the upcoming weeks. Are you telling us that is acceptable ?
      And you completely ignore the social cost, the financial cost and the long term physical health consequences of those that survive– Really ? Andrew says I won’t have a head on conversation–
      Come on, IR– you presented the facts– they are catastrophic for the country– tell me why these numbers are acceptable.

  14. No ajay it is not the worst thing ever. If this is the worst thing you ever experienced, then you had a pretty easy life. I didn’t say 140,000 was not a lot, but see how many total number of cases and then do the math. I know people who had and didn’t even realize it until they did a test out of curiosity. I thought it was deadly and lethal? This is a variation of the common cold, not a new HIV. It is not a death sentence, but you can freak out as much as you want, boomers get scared easily.

  15. qwerty they know what you say is true but they dont want it to be true because they want this to continue until Biden gets elected. On that day the pandemic will have ended. 42 percent of the deaths are in Nursing homes. 82 percent in people over 65. People die. 2.6 million in the USA every year. A ten year old wearing a mask and walking alone on Lamberts Cove Beach is depressingly sad.

    • That is untrue, Andrew. The last thing I wanted was a pandemic, politics be damned. My own health has been greatly harmed by what is going on. Many others lost loved ones, and you assume the concern is all insincere.

      Qwerty described this as the common cold. Autopsies show otherwise.

      Many have claimed this will end in November if Trump loses, but not a single person has ever answered my question about how this can be about American politics when numerous other countries have suffered deaths, lockdowns, complications, crowded hospitals and funeral services, and economic damage. I don’t believe the world is faking or sacrificing to hurt Trump’s chances.

    • Island Raised, I apologize for this repetition, but your failure to examine closely your own sources is egregious. (EVERY WORD, yourself.) “Dr. Osterholm clarifies that he supports the wearing of cloth face coverings in public and urges people to stop citing CIDRAP and him as grounds for not wearing masks, but he also asks that advocates not use poorly conducted studies to support their use.”
      https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/commentary-my-views-cloth-face-coverings-public-preventing-covid-19

    • Read it. No idea what I was supposed to learn from that over-explanation of basics and timelines. Masks, N95s, and disease are not new to me. I was familiar prior to 2020 and have kept up on corona. Anyone who has been paying attention will not find this uniquely informative.

      “Remember that science is constantly evolving and answers to these questions may come with time.”

      True. Which is why I said that to you, Island Raised. Using almost those words. Believe you still told me I can’t understand The Science.

      “Fifth, many in the general public are currently using cloth masks in public to protect themselves and others. They should be made aware that these masks may provide some benefit in reducing the risk of virus transmission, but at best it can only be anticipated to be limited. Distancing remains the most important risk reduction action they can take.”

      Is this supposed to be surprising or helpful? Again, I have said similar since the start. So have many others. I even quoted myself from back in April to catch you up. Every time I mentioned masks, I’d stress that they’re not perfect solutions and do not offer complete protection. That distancing and hygiene still matter. Some of us were worried about reopening too soon, precisely because we are aware of the risks, but others demanded it. All we could do is accept that and support strict guidelines, which certainly include — but were never limited to — masks.

      You knocked these efforts repeatedly, claiming they’re harmful and useless. You pushed for “natural herd immunity”, despite knowing more will die. No one went for that approach. Now you act like you invented the very stance most embraced ages ago and have been preaching. Can’t make this stuff up.

      As I said under several other articles, sometimes while talking to you directly, masks, distancing, and soap are what we’re working with for now. If you interpreted that as masks are a lone and complete cure, that’s on you. Read more closely next time instead of trying to deflect. This was boring.

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